An Inquiry into Job - what a sad guy.

[Theresa Rickloff]

I've been reading through the book of Job the past few months (yeah, it's been at least 3 months), and it's been a very interesting, and in some ways problematic, book for me.
Job is nearly forty chapters of Job's friends telling him he has sinned and needs to repent for what he has done in order to be reconciled to the Lord, and no longer be punished.
Job's argument back is that he knows he hasn't sinned, and his friends would do best to be quiet.
This back-and-forth theme is certainly prevalent throughout the book...here's a snippet of Job's response to his friend Eliphaz:
Job 6:24-27
24 "Teach me, and I will be quiet;
show me where I have been wrong.

25 How painful are honest words!
But what do your arguments prove?

26 Do you mean to correct what I say,
and treat the words of a despairing man as wind?

27 You would even cast lots for the fatherless
and barter away your friend.

(I'm using NIV, for those who care to know)

Pretty scathing stuff to say to a friend who is giving pretty basic advice.

To perhaps move on to a different, but equally interesting point...Job later despairs even HARDER, and addresses God with this (uncapitalized "you" in NIV, capitalized in NKJV):
Job 7:17-21
17 "What is man that you make so much of him,
that you give him so much attention,

18 that you examine him every morning
and test him every moment?

19 Will you never look away from me,
or let me alone even for an instant?

20 If I have sinned, what have I done to you,
O watcher of men?
Why have you made me your target?
Have I become a burden to you? [f]

21 Why do you not pardon my offenses
and forgive my sins?
For I will soon lie down in the dust;
you will search for me, but I will be no more."

Pretty bleak stuff, eh? His sentiments I can certainly relate to, though.

I really want to open the book of Job for discussion. Here are some of my main questions about these passages, and the whole book in general.
1. How are we supposed to comfort those who are hurting, if Job is refuting the generic advice of: "Do not fear, repent and God will make everything better?" Are we supposed to listen to Job? He's always been presented as a man who suffered and did not sin...
2. What is the right way to express our anguish? Job yells at God, and infers that he is some sort of experiment. He asks God to "leave him alone"...kind of like a teenager yelling at their parent. Read all of chapter 7, for more of the same. Is Job okay to do this? A lot of it sounds like what we often characterize as blasphemy, or at least borders on "God's a real bully". Is that okay? Does God appreciate our honesty? Does honesty matter?

Anyway, lots of questions I'm throwing out there. Like I said, I really just want to foster discussion on here, and curious to hear everyone's opinions.

[Billy Kangas]

YAY I'm so glad to hear from you TR!!

1. How are we supposed to comfort those who are hurting, if Job is refuting the generic advice of: "Do not fear, repent and God will make everything better?" Are we supposed to listen to Job? He's always been presented as a man who suffered and did not sin...

I listen to Job in the same way I listen to you... He's a man who says somestuff that's "theologically sound" and other stuff that's not so much... BUT his words strike deep into what we humans go throgh in mourning... It's a very beautiful poem about the ways a man deals with God though others, through misery, through self reflection, and THEN God speaks to him out of a storm.... but with questions... WOW good stuff... I love love love JOB because it doesn't resolve well.

I have always found the Jewish stages of mourning to be interesting...

There are three of them:
1. SHIVA - A mourner sits for seven days. Friends come and sit with them. There is talking if they want talking. Silence if not. If errands need to be done the community does them... I think that's awesome. The mourners experience a week of intense grief, and the community is there to love and comfort and provide for their needs.

2. SHLOSHlM - For 30 days mourners do not shave or cut their hair. It's like a no shave January, but for sadness. "Why 30 days? The Jewish calendar is marked by lunar time. As the moon waxes and wanes in a cycle, the 30?day period of mourning is an opportunity to emotionally come full circle. The process begins with the funeral and first days of shiva, when not even a glimmer of light is seen. As time goes on, the light slowly comes back, fuller and fuller. The 30 days is an important central cycle of time, a time to renew and to come to grips with a new reality." - Cool

3.THE ONE-YEAR PERIOD - This period of time guides one into a deep state of gratitude. I think that's awesome. So often when we hurt we focus so much on ourselves and our pain, and not on all the ways we have been blessed. When I feel down Joan always tells me to look outside of myself. Focusing on our own pain does not help me to heal nearly as well as recognizing the blessings all around me.



2. What is the right way to express our anguish? Job yells at God, and infers that he is some sort of experiment. He asks God to "leave him alone"...kind of like a teenager yelling at their parent. Read all of chapter 7, for more of the same. Is Job okay to do this? A lot of it sounds like what we often characterize as blasphemy, or at least borders on "God's a real bully". Is that okay? Does God appreciate our honesty? Does honesty matter?

In the mourning I talked about above a prayer is recited:

May the great Name of God be exalted and sanctified, throughout the world, which he has created according to his will. May his Kingship be established in your lifetime and in your days, and in the lifetime of the entire household of Israel, swiftly and in the near future; and say, Amen.
May his great name be blessed, forever and ever.
Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, honored elevated and lauded be the Name of the holy one, Blessed is he- above and beyond any blessings and hymns, Praises and consolations which are uttered in the world; and say Amen. May there be abundant peace from Heaven, and life, upon us and upon all Israel; and say, Amen.

He who makes peace in his high holy places, may he bring peace upon us, and upon all Israel; and say Amen.

I think that's a cool prayer. I see nothing wrong with getting angry, but let that anger drive you to bring life. When I get angry at God, or friends or anyone I find prayer helps me in so many ways. Even if you can't pray the prayer above and mean it... praying it means you at least want to mean it. I guess that's what I would recommend.

[Andrew Smith]

When we try to figure out which message we'll take away from the book of Job, it depends in part on what we understand the purpose of the book to be. Some people have viewed the book as telling us why God does what He does (theodicy); I disagree - I don't think that this is the main purpose of the book. (Dictionaries will give slightly varying definitions of "theodicy," depending on which dictionary you use.

Others see the book of Job as some kind of description of a faithful person undergoing suffering: either a psychological profile of suffering, or an instruction manual about how to suffer well. Although I find this interpretation of Job attractive - think about the phrase "suffer well"! - and I think that this interpretation gives us some legitimate insight into the text, I don't think that it's the main point of the book; it is perhaps a secondary point.

What, for me, comes closest to crystalizing the core message of the book is that it shows the relation of the sufferer to others, specifically to his fellow believers. The Body of Christ is supposed to gather to support those who suffer. The three friends who arrive to comfort Job show us clearly how to best support the sufferer: but they show us by doing it wrong! The message is that these three friends are blockheads, and that, although well-intended, their attempts to comfort Job perhaps actually compound his mental anguish. The message of the text, then, is study carefully what these three friends do, and then go do anything else, but don't do what they did. (The fourth friend does a little better.)